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Old 07-15-2014, 04:15 PM
Elyos
  • Rank: Kromede's Blade
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Default Sin vs Sorc - RS Judgement and Silence Prediction

I get questions from people sometimes, and I thought this one was something other people would find useful.


For a sin, fighting a good sorc is much trickier than the other classes. This is because a sorc has 2 pathways they can use to kill you, whereas most other classes generally only have 1.
These 2 ways are:
  • Bury silence > root > Nuke
  • Burn Remove Shock > Sleep for 7 seconds > Aetherhold
Now if sorcs were only able to choose 1 method at the start of a fight or after a CC cycle and then stick with it, this might not seem all that bad. But the reality is sorcs are able to freely decide between which method they want to use by setting up both simultaneously (ie. Using a stun/knockback to facilitate their silence bury). In order to beat sorcs, you must be able to see what they are trying to do with their stuns and respond to it accordingly.

There are generally 3 tiers of assassins that fight sorc. Now no one should feel bad about themselves – everyone starts at 1 of these tiers and the goal is to move up to the advanced tier, which is why you’re reading this guide in the first place. Just know that the ball is almost always in the sorc’s hand, so it demands a higher skill from the assassin in order to beat the sorc.
  • Beginner: Pretty much Remove Shocking every stun. Sometimes may get lucky with less-skilled sorcs, but basically impossible to beat any sorc who has some mild level of understanding.
  • Mid: Wary of getting put into aetherhold but because of this ends up getting silence buried all the time. Mainly beats sorcs who don’t really know how to bury properly. Wins are still highly ganking or luck-based.
  • Advanced: Able to judge the situation and Remove Shock appropriately. Can only beaten by the top of the top among sorcs.

Notice there is a huge gap in the outcome of fights once someone is able to judge when to Remove Shock on a sorc.

Now that we’ve covered the basic goals of this guide, let’s examine what happens if you don’t use your Remove Shock properly.
There are really only 2 outcomes:
1) If you hold your Remove Shock when you shouldn't be holding it, you can get silence buried during the stun when you could’ve gotten out of it
2) If you use your Remove Shock when you shouldn't be using it, you'll get killed by Aetherhold.
The key is to be able to see the queues that tell you which method of killing you a sorc is trying to use. If you know the sorc is going to bury silence during the stun, you Remove Shock and Aethertwist right after. If you know the sorc is going to go for an Aetherhold finisher, you hold it.

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First off, the ideal opener is Weave > Ripclaw > Killer's Eye > Pain Rune >Weave > Shadowfall (If haven't Remove Shocked yet) > Carve runes out of hide. A lot of the good sorcs like to use Illusion as soon as they see you come out of hide in order to dodge the Ambush. But if you make no sound, they won't be able to dodge your Ripclaw and Pain Rune will land through Illusion, allowing you to freely weave it off with rune carve or swift edge before you use Shadowfall. This also allows you to save Ambush for later as it has 20m range and just in case you do get silenced and need to buy time.

Additionally, if you are able to slideshot the Ripclaw in the opposite direction of the sorc's movement, this will ensure that they don't Illusion Storm you before you can use Pain Rune, (or even worse, at the same time that you stun them) as this is another common defense mechanism sorcs will use when you come out of hide.

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When Should You Remove Shock?
The most important thing to remember when fighting a sorc is to NEVER NEVER NEVER use your Remove Shock if the sorc has not used theirs. This is because if your Remove Shock is gone, and then you stun them, they will turn you into a tree instantly and you will be done. Guaranteed you will lose the fight every time unless the sorc lags or something. This is why a successful opener (see above) is half the battle, because you have to make the sorc use Remove Shock.

Therefore, in every situation below, we are assuming the sorc has already Remove Shocked and is beginning their counterattack.


If the sorc uses a stun very early in the fight (generally initiating from sleep) and you have 0 debuffs on you, it's highly likely that they're going for Aetherhold. Hold your Remove Shock for about half a second, and see what the sorc's next cast is. If they start casting a sleep, usually Sleep Storm or Somnolence, do not use Remove Shock. Usually if this approach fails the sorc will continue sleeping you a few times and move onto the silence bury approach.

Side Note - If they are casting a sleep next after the stun, even if you think you can Remove Shock and hit a resist in time, do not remove shock because sleep storm in particular has a high delay that lets it land through resists that are not timed extremely early. If you make this mistake and the sleep (excluding Somnolence) does bypass your resist, right click the buff and REMOVE it. (This is assuming the sorc is good and notices it, otherwise you can leave it on and resist the next sleep). The sorc will try to weave off your resist with autoattack or Flame Cage before casting the next sleep, and this will knock you out of sleep instead because you removed the resist.

A very common situation that falls under this category (early stun out of sleep with 0 debuff) is when the sorc sleeps you after Remove Shocking, and then right out of sleep they will use Ice Chain. If you are fast enough, you can avoid Frozen Shock altogether with FE (Animation is a lot faster than Aethertwisting) and Ambush the sorc. Another thing you could do instead of FE is Flash of Speed before Ambush so that you are detargeted and back at 0 debuffs. I personally don’t prefer using Break Away here because you’d be relying on RNG to resist the knockback and so it doesn't do much else for you besides removing 1 debuff and buying some time.
However, if you do get stunned by it, wait for half a second. If they use a debuff, Remove Shock and Aethertwist right away followed by Ambush because they will begin casting silence next. If it is a sleep cast instead, do not Remove Shock. Note, before you use Ambush always make sure they do not have Illusion up or they will dodge it and you will be left in a bad position. If this is the case, use Dash Attack and then weave > Ambush. If the sorc is on the move and you’re unable to land a second hit on them after Dash Attack, shoot them once with your bow and then Ambush.

It is important also to note which stun/knockback skill the sorc is using. For example in the case of Arcane Thunderbolt or Illusion Storm, hold your Remove Shock for a short time. In either of these cases, you will have no debuffs on you unlike Ice Chain which puts a debuff on you, so you have a bit more time. If the next cast is sleep, continue holding. If the next cast is something like Flame Fusion, Remove Shock and Aethertwist. Illusion Storm is a very long stun, so usually sorcs like to use this to cover silence; it is a big waste for them to use such a long stun to burn your Remove Shock. However do not just instantly remove shock this because if you are in range of Illusion Storm you are also in range of Slumberslept Wind.

Some more queues:
If you have Flame Cage on you and you get stunned, they can't sleep you and that's 1 debuff, so you should Remove Shock.

There's a ton of other scenarios, but in general if you are already in sleep and they stun you out of sleep, you should Remove Shock > Aethertwist. If they are going for the Aetherhold they will generally just stun/knockback and then sleep rather than wasting CC's and time with sleep > stun > sleep.
Very rarely exceptions will occur with rotations like Somnolence > Arcane Thunderbolt > Sleep Storm or the like (but tbh only sorcs who do not know how to fight without their opponent being in sleep half the time will do this sort of thing. You can usually tell within the first few seconds of the fight what kind of predispositions they might have).

If the sorc has Vaizel's Wisdom on and they stun you, most likely you should Remove Shock and Aethertwist. This is because they are able to bury very fast during this buff and they probably aren't going to waste it on sleeping you and waiting out the Remove Shock.

If you are not in sleep and they start casting Ice Chain use FE. (Idk why any sorc would do this unless they know you are on cooldown though).

If you are not in Sleep and they stun you early on in the fight where they haven't slept you at all yet, usually you should hold your Remove Shock.

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How to Avoiding Illusion Storm and Slumberslept Wind

It’s hard to say whether you should assume a sorc has vision stigma Slumberslept Wind (Instant AoE sleep around the sorc). In my experience I rarely come across it but I will address it here because you should be careful all the same.

Common usage:
Illusion Storm > Slumberslept can be used together to get your remove shock out. Illusion Storm is a fairly common defense mechanism that sorcs will use if they get a chance the minute your opening stunlock has an opening (if you did not do enough damage and they held Remove Shock). More commonly though, they may use it right after Remove Shocking.

If you’ve been fighting songweavers (which have been around for much longer than vision stigmas have), the technique to avoid the Illusion Storm is very much the same. The moment you want to FE is basically right when you know they will Remove Shock, which is something that takes experience and judgement.

Examples of avoiding instant AoE.
This is a very important thing to be able to do vs these classes because as you can see it changes the entire outcome of the fight. If you can juke songweavers you will be able to juke sorcs too and I use this vs Songweaver more often since their AoE is 30s CD so these are all songweaver examples.
  • After getting them to use Remove Shock - 1:11
  • When you leave some gap in your stunlock - 1:42
  • Stunlock gap - 11:44
(If you want to learn more about gaps in stunlock you can see In-depth Stunlock Mechanic).

Basically if you are good enough at "feeling" when the sorc is about to remove shock and FE at that moment, 9 times out of 10 you will be able to get even the top sorcs to throw their Illusion Storm into your resist. Alternatively, you could try to stack Sensory Boost with Shimmerbomb (effectively +1k MR) and since sorc will not have prepopped Supplication of Focus they cannot directly throw instant sleep on you.

Beast Leap is an alternative method to avoid it, but be careful because if you judged wrong and they did not Remove Shock, you just stopped DPS’ing and created distance, leaving the sorc with their Remove Shock still and now the chance to recover and initiate the fight on you instead (no more hide).

If they manage to hit you with it in the opening though, watch very carefully for if they put are using a debuff next. As soon as you know they are debuffing, Remove Shock > FE > Beast Leap so that they do not do 2 debuff > Sleep (between DoT ticks) > Silence.


If it is not the opener and the sorc is staying fairly close to you while debuffing (around 10m), you can Beast Leap to avoid Slumberslept and then Aethertwisting will very likely resist their silence since they have to cast it immediately after the sleep.

If the sorc is ever moving towards you, that's a sign to pop a resist when they get within ~10m. Ranged classes who try to get in close are pretty much always about to try to pull something on you.

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If you have debuffs on you and they blind leap, wait about half a second and use a resist.

Whenever you Remove Shock it should always be followed by Aethertwisting or Spelldodging, but most of the time not FE because sorc could still be casting a debuff, and it can get weaved off a lot easier. Make sure however, that you time it as late as possible. At the highest tier of sin vs sorc the sorc is aware that you are aware of these things, so they will purposely leave a gap after debuffing and wait for you to Aethertwist.


If the sorc just tries to cover silence straight up without using a stun, Aethertwist as soon as you see the sorc stop moving. This is almost always when the sorc will cast silence, because they have to stop moving in order to cast. The cast will be too fast for them to cancel at this point especially if they have Vaizel's Wisdom on.

These queues are highly reliable but still not 100% guaranteed, so always use your best judgement.

Full vs sorc arena with a few of these examples:
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Last edited by Aethyria - Siel; 01-24-2016 at 05:44 AM.
  #2  
Old 07-15-2014, 05:45 PM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Tzu
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Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

Personally I prefer Assassination over Shadow Fall.


I like to save Shadowfall until I go to finish them to continue the lockdown.
  #3  
Old 07-15-2014, 05:48 PM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Commander
  • Posts: 623
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

somnelence or watever and that insta stun skill can reck yo face.

holding remove shock with 80ms is lel 9/10 times at will come out but ull get silence buried.

good sorcs dont illusion on intiate.

forgot to mention vaizel, sorcs tend to use that before going for silence combo wombo. and again once ur silenced illusion to avoid ambush and gee gee.


alot of this stuff dont apply for world pvp anyway. DF and kill sorc in few hits in world no care.

ely sins have 10min cd, 2 more resists ftw
  #4  
Old 07-15-2014, 05:48 PM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Commander
  • Posts: 623
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake - Kahrun View Post
Personally I prefer Assassination over Shadow Fall.


I like to save Shadowfall until I go to finish them to continue the lockdown.
shadowfall forces remove shock in alot of cases
  #5  
Old 07-15-2014, 05:52 PM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Commander
  • Posts: 623
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

and ur 5-10min took longer >_<
  #6  
Old 07-15-2014, 06:07 PM
Elyos
  • Rank: Kromede's Blade
  • Posts: 2,907
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

Every time I fight Suyji he Illusion on initiate lol.

I almost never use DF, personally. It's a trump card to burn that squishy to turn the score around in the last few seconds of a harmony arena, kill people 1vX, etc, not something I'd use to jump a single sorc lol.

As far as holding Remove Shock goes, you hold it until the first moment you can see what their next cast is. If Vaizel is up, almost always they are going for silence bury. And Vaizel also makes it easier to judge based on the speed of the cast bar. Sleep will always cast same speed outside of sleep storm, so if you see an abnormally fast cast you'll know you should be Remove Shocking it.

Idk any sorcs who will do 2 debuffs > stun > silence, it's almost always 1 debuff > stun > 1 debuff > silence, and if you Remove Shock right after the stun you can almost always resist the 2nd debuff and even silence if the sorc isn't watching closely, but that doesn't matter since you'll be stunning them next and interrupting the bury.

Poolzl pro triple post
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Last edited by Aethyria - Siel; 07-15-2014 at 06:11 PM.
  #7  
Old 07-15-2014, 08:18 PM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Commander
  • Posts: 623
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

now now dun be h8tin on my forum post skillz boi
lol

DF is only 5min lol use it wenevz, i dun use it in duels tho. pretty sure sorcs wud iron clad or wintry anytime any day, just like any world pvp'r would.

2 debuff is what I see most, never seen 1d stun 1d o.o. which is why i usually rs right before stun to avoid rs lag/ping issues, then i wont be stunned or silenced.

oh and you can evade ripclaw using illusion like right upon intiate, seen it happen to me a few times, ripclaw > illusion > evade, no hide buffs used ofc.
  #8  
Old 07-15-2014, 08:41 PM
Elyos
  • Rank: Kromede's Blade
  • Posts: 2,907
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

I've never seen that lol you'd have to be really unlucky.

If they try to use 2d > stun you can just AT as soon as they stop moving for the cast, which I think is why I don't see a lot of sorcs using it. Even if they use Illusion Storm for the instant stun it's a stationary skill so you can tell when they're about to stop.

It's also better vs cleric to try to pull off 1d > stun > 1d since most stuns aren't long enough to cover the time for 2 debuffs and silence, so good practice and all for them.
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2014, 10:15 PM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Tzu
  • Posts: 8,168
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolz - Siel View Post
shadowfall forces remove shock in alot of cases
So does when they see that their HP is already at 50% from a BM sin.


I've yet to fight a sorc who doesnt hold it lol.
  #10  
Old 07-16-2014, 06:38 AM
Asmodians
  • Rank: Commander
  • Posts: 623
Default Re: Sin vs Sorc - Remove Shock Judgement

Bad sorks bad sorks watchu gonna do, watchu gonna do when they come for u.

Come 2 think of there isnt many sorcs around lol. Can only think of 3-4.

And yeh that ripclaw evade is annoying pretty sure sorcs can time it, cos ripclaw is a little slow

Flame fusion (the red debuff? i think o.o) into ice chain (2nd debuff). If i get stunned by that, due to ping i cant rs into at. so either breakaway right before the stun to remove slow and be able to pot silence or at before stun so u resist stun + whatever is after or at as soon as stun which is harder to time.

it's like fighting sms lol, but a lot of ppls fail at fighting sms anyway

Last edited by Poolz - Siel; 07-16-2014 at 06:47 AM.
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